complaint department!

Replies

Jacqueline Webster April 23, 2010 at 1:03pm

I just got an email announcing the Zapp conference in St. Louis. Maybe you should try attending and voicing your concerns with the system?
Michelle Sholund April 9, 2010 at 9:38pm

I have read, and re-read the posts here. And there are so many great points people have brought up.

There is one thing I do want to clarify in my earlier post regarding "respecting a promoters wishes". I can't remember EXACTLY what I said, but I see where Munks thought the tone (and words) implied mushiness or lack of passion. That wasn't the direction I tended the post to go. I am 100% with you Munks. We deserve to be in the loop and be respected both as artists and human beings - without us artists they don't have a show. The smart ones who realize that are the successful ones.

I hear discussion about Zapp and so on, but feel that it is the promoter putting the info on Zap do need to state the facts clearly. My biggest frustration is the "blanket" term art and craft show. Today it means so many things, but rarely follow through with having true art as well as true HANDCRAFTED crafts. It is also frustrating that you read everything you can about a show, and it is billed as a juried, handmade only - with a decent jury fee, only to find out it hardly is. That, to me, is robbing us blind. In that sense, the show organizers do need to make it known what they want in a show. I did promote (and helped organize other) juried art fairs and when it came to our own events, we made it clear - we jury for handmade artwork and will only accept a limited amount of art from each medium to ensure a wide variety of artwork would be made available for patrons to buy from. We did state what we, and the jury, looked for, regarding our jury process, but even so we had submissions that were NOT what we said and people upset about being rejected. I had people who didn't understand why they couldn't sell their own Jamacian Seasoning, jewelry that was clearly not made by their own hands, and those wonderful frog instrument people. They didn't get into our show and those who were accepted were thrilled how we carried through with everything we said we did. We were also careful with how we said what our attendance would be - we didn't promise anything as this was a first year event, but showed our hand when it came to what our advertising efforts were- all directed toward the buyer crowd, not browsers. The only thing that wasn't the most successful were the crowds, but again I can't control the horrendous downpours all day long nor the stock market crash that occurred the day before which sent EVERYONE into a panic. Despite all that, 8 out of 10 artists found those that did come really were buyers and had better sales than doing big name shows.

My point in my digression down memory lane - it is true you can find more success at smaller shows than the big shows with 250 plus exhibitors.

It might sound weird, but I don't do Zapp. I don't see enough people in my area using it, let alone have heard about it. The ones that do are far too out of my price range for doing shows and I don't think I would be a good fit - selling things like my own handmade potpourri or (soon to be) candles. So, I have to be picky when it comes to the rest.

With all this said, I believe Munk is truthful when he says we MUST raise a stink. For show promoters to understand how they can do a better job, we do have an obligation to tell them how we rate their job and if they refuse to listen, take our booth fees (and jury fees) elsewhere. It is a small step, but it will make a big impact, from one show to the next show.

Good points - ALL OF YOU!!!

Michelle
Oscar Matos Linares April 9, 2010 at 9:47am

I can see a lot of valid points. I count my blessing with any show I get in. Each show has the potential of become a great show for me and is matter to work in making the show become great.

The idea that anyone believe that b/c you got into one of the top shows does not means that you are the greatest. If you see some of the photographers works you wonder why you did not get in. Other times I can see why but at the same why my friend did not got in.

We all know that other factors goes into the equation.
Munks April 8, 2010 at 2:10pm

It's not really an "alpha male" thing. I have a passion for my work and my business. I've talked about a lot of issues because I really think they are important. I have many, many more days behind me than in front of me around here and it breaks my heart to see mediocrity and apathy so prevalent in our field while artists just throw up their hands and accept it all. Has anyone noticed the latest art movement? (No, not yard art!) There hasn't been one. Has anyone noticed that the leaders in the art world are not artists? I would argue that there aren't even avant garde movements anymore. Anyone read a really good intelligent critique or analysis of a work or body of work by an intelligent, informed art critic lately? Does it bother anyone that most people seem to hinge their ranking or even their worth as an artist on whether or not they could get into Cherry Creek or Des Moines or some other self-appointed kingmaker? My days are numbered, but these things do really, really bother me.

It's not an alpha male thing, it's a love for art and a disdain for what the world of art and art fairs has progressively degenerated to over the last few years.

S. Michelle Babcock said:
Ah Munks, you poor old head banger. I find that I agree with most of what you have to say. Maybe not always with the tone of how you say it, but perhaps that is the alpha dog in you. Good sarcasm is a gift.
That being said I have a few observations also. I know a jeweler that has been getting into shows using the same slides for years of things she did in college. When you see her booth you will see that a lot of her things are buy/sell and she declares she's made everything. She actually makes about 10% of the stuff she sells. Is she ever asked to leave? No. So I hold both her and the show responsible. On zapp I looked at a show I applied to and did last year because that weekend was open for me and I wanted to fill the slot. It was a total waste of time with maybe 5,000 in attendance. There was some good art there, but no crowd. I looked on their zapp info today just to see what they had to say this year to get the artists in. They state that last year they had 80,000 in attendance. I was beyond speechless when I read that. What a bold face lie. I would complain to zapp, but find communicating with zapp a real pain in the a--. They don't make it easy.So now we have two examples of lies from both ends of a show. Is this world losing all its integrity? The shows need both reliable and honest directors, promotors and artists.
Larry Berman April 7, 2010 at 11:36pm

Communicating with ZAPP. Here's a phone number: 888-562-7232. But they will tell you that they have no control over what the show puts in their prospectus. All they are is an application system the shows use. Every decision that the show makes from application to policy to what happens at the actual show is the show's responsibility and has nothing to do with ZAPP.

> On zapp I looked at a show I applied to and did because that weekend was open for me and I wanted to fill the slot. It was a total waste of time with maybe 5,000 in attendance. There was some good art there, but no crowd. I looked on their zapp info today just to see what they had to say this year to get the artists in. They state that last year they had 80,000 in attendance. I was beyond speechless when I read that. What a bold face lie. I would complain to zapp, but find communicating with zapp a real pain in the a--. They don't make it easy.

Larry Berman
Digital Jury Services
http://BermanGraphics.com
412-401-8100
S. Michelle Babcock April 7, 2010 at 11:16pm

Ah Munks, you poor old head banger. I find that I agree with most of what you have to say. Maybe not always with the tone of how you say it, but perhaps that is the alpha dog in you. Good sarcasm is a gift.
That being said I have a few observations also. I know a jeweler that has been getting into shows using the same slides for years of things she did in college. When you see her booth you will see that a lot of her things are buy/sell and she declares she's made everything. She actually makes about 10% of the stuff she sells. Is she ever asked to leave? No. So I hold both her and the show responsible.
On zapp I looked at a show I applied to and did last year because that weekend was open for me and I wanted to fill the slot. It was a total waste of time with maybe 5,000 in attendance. There was some good art there, but no crowd. I looked on their zapp info today just to see what they had to say this year to get the artists in. They state that last year they had 80,000 in attendance. I was beyond speechless when I read that. What a bold face lie. I would complain to zapp, but find communicating with zapp a real pain in the a--. They don't make it easy.
So now we have two examples of lies from both ends of a show. Is this world losing all its integrity? The shows need both reliable and honest directors, promotors and artists.
Munks April 7, 2010 at 7:24pm

Holly,

Before I say anything else, I want you to know that I don't care one way or another about Clayton. The issues are what's important. I want it understood that Clayton is definitely better than some shows and certainly worse than others. Outside of significantly high jury and booth fees, the reality is I will never apply there after my very brief interaction the director. No big deal, I'm sure she'll live a full life without me in it and with no regrets. I'm going to stick with what I see are important issues for artists to think about if they are going to make a living doing something as insane as selling art at art fairs. Robbing banks is more lucrative and safer!

Actually I agree with about 90% of what you have written. But I really think a couple of issues are still very apparent. If what you say is completely on target - why are these big shows letting in B/S? Why are they pulling in last minute artists that pull up with their trailer and a cash booth fee? Why are some shows filling booth space with car dealers? Newspapers and their hawkers? Why are the shows overselling booth space and putting first year artists in poor locations to "earn their bones" before being allowed to really be part of the show next year? - that is if the row captain likes you. Why are they wanting huge booth fees in early spring for a fall show? Why are the jury fees so high? If the carnival shows bring in such fantastic cream of the crop artists - then how come I get in? Seriously, on top of that, how can I set up next to some mediocre beader at a mid-level show who told me she just got back from a "top tier" show that let her in? (True story, I'll be damned if she wasn't on the artist list on the website too!)

Here's the biggest question I have in response to your very eloquent essay: Why are sales down if these shows are so fantastic and so elite? It doesn't fit with what you are saying. The booth fees are too high, the number of artists too high, too many distractions. As I said before, it's all about sales. Again, while I agree with most of what you have written, the reality of what goes on at the carnival monster shows just does not jibe with what you or I would expect in terms of dollars.

Not all of these shows are dinosaurs, but some of them are just being subsidized by rejected artists - no matter how good they (the artists) may be. The mid-level shows are where it's at right now in my opinion. Less hassle, great customers, less cost, more profit, better relationships. And not one person says "end of story" to me.

Nice writing Holly - especially the Smithsonian quip!

Sigh, back to my dot on the wall. Bang, bang, bang, bang.

Holly Olinger said:
I am always wildly amused when one person draws a line in the sand and says what a good show is. There are many forms of good shows and it's dependent on the needs of the specific artist. There is no "one size fits all" definition of a good show. That being said and since former posts describe the St. Louis Fair and it's director in unflattering terms, let me shed some light on why many people - not me because I have not done the show, no ever even applied - describe St Louis as one of the best shows in the circuit.
Lets start with the jury since I was there and sat through hours of images, their descriptions and some very extensive instructions by medium of what they sought from the jurors. This was open - any single person on this forum could have been there - Cindy was a great host and very detailed in her explanations of the process and the reasoning behind it. First off the bat - it was explained to me personally that when an artist fails to submit booth images that meet the requirements of the prospectus, Cindy does not throw their application into the trash. You could have submitted a booth shot with NO work in it, a booth shot that had your name visibly displayed, a booth shot that had a picture of the artist drinking alcohol, and still had your submission reviewed by the jury. The concept being that the show director lets the jury do their job. They know the wording of the prospectus and it's them - the jury - who enforces the booth shot rules - not the director. I don't see how that could be any more fair. I also cannot believe after watching 1400 people's apps get reviewed, how many stupid artists there are who either cannot or choose to not follow the rules. You people are throwing your money down the drain because a good juror will deny your app in a second if you cannot follow the rules about name signs, etc. Don't do it to yourself - keep your jury fee if you cannot follow the rules. Don't blame this on the show or the director.Secondly - a show that is listed as a top tier show is that for a reason. They have good art, excellent applicants and very very knowledgeable jurors who are familiar with the mediums and the processes. This should be really really simple to understand but if you are a jeweler and you do not hand fabricate your product from raw metal, cut your stones or otherwise have a huge talent -- don't apply to a top tier show. It does not matter how good you are at wire wrapping, what wonderful exotic trade beads from all over the planet you choose and arrange in fabulous constructions, you absolutely will not get into a top tiered jury show. This is the hard reality folks. Bead art no matter how well executed is not going to get you into those shows. Save your money for an appropriate venue.

If you are a photographer and your subject matter is the doors of Europe, of red rocks desert, or Amish buggies in a green field - forget it. Those types of images are a dime a dozen. You need to have a unique vision that expresses your artistic view. It is simply not enough to be technically competent. In this day the computer in that camera is good enough to make a 5 year old able to take Smithsonian pictures of bugs and flowers. You have to bring something more to the table.

At the St Louis jury the number of applicants vs the number of accepted artists from the prior year was shown on a chart. This information was clearly and fairly presented. It was a tool for any potential applicant to view and I imagine Cindy would share the same with anyone who asked her by phone or email Needless to say, upon viewing the chart, I can tell you that the obvious mediums - photography, jewelry, sculpture - are overloaded. For many of them, you have less than a 1 in 10 chance of getting accepted. People keep complaining about their rejections and not having a jury score - I say pooh to that. You have the only numbers you need - if there are 1400 applicants and only 180 people get in, you damn well better know that your work is among the top 10% of all potential exhibitors or you are wasting your money. Can you honestly look at your own work, your own booth shot and your own sales records to know if you can keep up with the artists at that level? It's not good enough to WANT to be at that level - you must KNOW you are at that level or you've thrown your jury fee to the wind.

The jurors in St Louis were pros. The website for the show had a resume' for each of them. People want to know who is doing their jury - a lot of shows may not tell you but St Louis does. This is one of many reasons they are a top tier show - total transparency in this process. I listened to their conversations before, during and after the jury hours. They know good work when they see it. They know who is bs-ing on the statement describing complicated processes that are not shown in the slides. You cannot get away with that people!!! Don't think you can fool a good juror into seeing reticulated gold when there is none in the shot.

So the next time I hear someone complaining about not getting into good shows, or bitching about "formerly" good shows, I just smile to myself and remember the applications at St. Louis from people who clearly were out of their league. Don't bother bitching about the show - put the energy into a self check and you will get a lot further for the energy you expended. And finally - be more selective about where you invest your jury money. Odds are against you if you apply to Cherry Creek, St Louis, Belleville, Fort Worth or Bayou City. Don't apply if you are not already capable of creating work and display that is among the 10% best in the country. This is a hard life - don't make it harder with falsely founded ego driven applications.
Munks April 7, 2010 at 11:04am

"Oh what a tangled web we weave."

The customer service analogy using Fedex as an example is indeed appropriate. If UPS screws me or screws up a shipment and does not make it right - guess what - I go to Fedex (or vice-versa). It's a business relationship yes, but I am also paying for the service. Do I give money to UPS and HOPE they agree to ship my painting? NO! I pay them to do a job. I pay a jury fee for a jury to evaluate my work, not the show promoter, not the secretary, not the "pre-juror", not the "blacklist" and not for a big, healthy dose of HOPE!- I pay for a jury to evaluate my images vis-a-vis the other artists and the show's needs to have an outstanding show and I expect to know what the evaluation of my work was during the jury process.

Your second point about the show and the artist having a customer in common is only partially true. The show could care less how much you sell in the short term. In the long run they SHOULD know that this is important - but in the short run they are more interested in turnout and press and portapotties and bitchy artists and so forth and so on. My point in my earlier comments was that the shows need to understand that sales are dropping and the huge carnival shows don't work like they used to for a variety of reasons.

Maybe it's just me, but when I pay for a service or good and I have a question - I do not actively and rarely passively "respect" their decision. If UPS isn't going to tell me if a package was delivered - guess who's going to catch hell from ol' Munksie! The same goes for shows, if you pay for a jury decision and/or a booth - YOU SHOULD GET ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS - or do like Cindy said - just "choose not to" and that will be the "end of the story". "Respecting ther decision" is not the way to conduct business - knowledge is power. Why, oh, why are we sooooo damn wimpy????? Your example of a customer wanting to know details is wayyyyy off. A customer wanting to know details is being a smart consumer. I think most people see where that goes, so I'll stop on that subject.

Tranparency means fiduciary - an expected return of a good or service for a fee paid. Who in the hell cares if someone is humiliated? This is business - this is art - this is real life! Bring your game or go home! Shall we just give a participation medal to everyone that applies too so everyone feels good?

Excuse me. I have to go bang my head against the dot on the wall some more. . .

OK, now I'm back.

The job hunt comparison is perhaps the most flawed. I am confused - on one hand you indicate that the relationship is a business relationship, but then you use an employer/applicant analogy. Nonetheless I could not disagree more with the employer/employee thing.

A company a person applies to does not usually (unless you are a dealer in Vegas or you have some weird union gig) send a message to a job hunter that they will be considered for a position if you will just send them MONEY to be considered. Job hunters in their respective fields know the vernacular, they know the expectations. If I apply to be a designer, garbage collector, surgeon, pilot, or porn star - I'd better know what I am talking about before applying! Artists are not provided with much more information for most, (but not all) shows outside of: fill out the form, send the images, and say a Hail Mary - oh, and don't forget the check. The shows need to outline what they are looking for, they need to let people know what they expect and they need to provide feedback. As an artist, I need to know more than "the jurors change every year".

In closing - everyone please remember this: The GOOD shows, the successful shows are not necessarily the largest - the good shows are the ones that have good reputations. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and it can be lost in a day. We do not need to support lousy, arrogant, bloated shows. If the top tiers of artists stop going to them, it doesn't matter if a bunch of mediocres step up without improving because the patrons won't buy from them and the show crashes and burns. The good shows, the professional ones know this. Don't support the lousy shows, let them fail!! When the show is full of yard art, blue tents filled with amateurs and their parents who come along for moral support and franchise photographers - you'll hear the funeral march for the show in your head.

End of story right?

Back to my dot on the wall. Bang, bang, bang. (I've got blisters on my forehead!) Bang, bang, bang.

Michelle Sholund said:
Let's break this down...

You said... My biggest complaint about shows is the customer service, or lack of it! I work for Fedex also and if we treated our customers the way I've been treated we would no longer be in business. When I send in my $30-$50 to apply to a show I become that show's customer. I often have questions about filling booth spaces when artist don't show, and questions about wheere am I on the wait list, what was my score (did I not PAY for a score?).

I don't understand what you mean by customer service and how it relates to FedEx. The idea of sending in $30-50 to apply to a show and "becoming a show's customer" that is not true. A customer is a patron, exhibitors simply work with promoters, is a business relationship - two businesses joining up for one cause. A PATRON, is a show customer, more or less.

If you have questions about how promoters fill booth spaces or where you are on the wait list - ASK THEM!!! If they choose not to give you that information, respect their decision. It is almost like having a buyer come into your booth and ask you every detail about how you make your art. It isn't necessary for them to know every detail, just the nuts and bolts, right? Just as some artists fear being copied, some promoters/show organizers feel the same about stealing their ideas - especially if they hold a successful event. Also, what can you gain from the extra knowledge? Does it matter if everyone on a waiting list is in a pool and randomly chosen to fill in spaces or if it is a first come first serve basis? In my opinion, it isn't worth the stress because every show promoter is different and each show is unique.

You said...THere is no transparencey with shows and how much they make from all those who are rejected. With Zapp, well when I enter a catagory how many people have applied to that catagory. The whole thing is rigged for the show not the artist.

What do you mean by transparency? Are you saying every detail about the jury process should be made known? That is not cool, because it can be humiliating to those that didn't do well, yet their jury score is open for all to see. Let's look at it from a different angle. You apply for a job, and considering the economy - a lot apply for the position, yet you feel very confident you will get it hands down. Do you think the employer will tell you everything you need to do to get hired as well as tell you about all the others who have applied? I don't think so and there are countless reasons why it isn't a good idea. However, if you do want viable feedback, contact them the promoter and make a request that a jury member could give you a little more info why you were rejected or whatever else you might need to know. You may find it wasn't due to your work at all - it could be that you failed to do something on your application, you sent in the wrong photos (sending to many for instance), the category is already filled by the time they reached your application/photos regardless of whether you think your work is better than what they chose.... In other words, don't take rejection too personally - promoters recognize everyone is very talented but they can only do so much. I am sure if they could accept everyone who applied it would be great, but it just isn't possible, so they do the best they can and trust that the jury members do the right thing. At that point you just have to respect their decision and move onto the next show.

Lastly, you said... I've had some of the best times of my life doing shows but I sure get frustrated at the lack of show directors doing their jobs.

What else is it that you feel show directors aren't doing? You never got into this topic unless it is just to go along with the "gripes" from before. Hey we all get upset about shows, at the end of the day we have the ability to choose which ones to do or not. Sometimes we learn the hard way, sometimes we see the red flags and get lucky and better yet find the show ended up being great and we are double lucky. Just count your blessings - both good and bad - as we become better people having had the experience!

Michelle
www.bythebaybotanicals.com
www.quickcraftartisttips.blogspot.com
barbara hollosy April 7, 2010 at 9:52am

Thanks for all the very interesting and fresh ways of thinking about what I said. I'm thinking about my complaints in a whole new light. Two heads are definatly better than one. bkbeads!
Michelle Sholund April 7, 2010 at 8:51am

Let's break this down...

You said... My biggest complaint about shows is the customer service, or lack of it! I work for Fedex also and if we treated our customers the way I've been treated we would no longer be in business. When I send in my $30-$50 to apply to a show I become that show's customer. I often have questions about filling booth spaces when artist don't show, and questions about wheere am I on the wait list, what was my score (did I not PAY for a score?).

I don't understand what you mean by customer service and how it relates to FedEx. The idea of sending in $30-50 to apply to a show and "becoming a show's customer" that is not true. A customer is a patron, exhibitors simply work with promoters, is a business relationship - two businesses joining up for one cause. A PATRON, is a show customer, more or less.

If you have questions about how promoters fill booth spaces or where you are on the wait list - ASK THEM!!! If they choose not to give you that information, respect their decision. It is almost like having a buyer come into your booth and ask you every detail about how you make your art. It isn't necessary for them to know every detail, just the nuts and bolts, right? Just as some artists fear being copied, some promoters/show organizers feel the same about stealing their ideas - especially if they hold a successful event. Also, what can you gain from the extra knowledge? Does it matter if everyone on a waiting list is in a pool and randomly chosen to fill in spaces or if it is a first come first serve basis? In my opinion, it isn't worth the stress because every show promoter is different and each show is unique.

You said...THere is no transparencey with shows and how much they make from all those who are rejected. With Zapp, well when I enter a catagory how many people have applied to that catagory. The whole thing is rigged for the show not the artist.

What do you mean by transparency? Are you saying every detail about the jury process should be made known? That is not cool, because it can be humiliating to those that didn't do well, yet their jury score is open for all to see. Let's look at it from a different angle. You apply for a job, and considering the economy - a lot apply for the position, yet you feel very confident you will get it hands down. Do you think the employer will tell you everything you need to do to get hired as well as tell you about all the others who have applied? I don't think so and there are countless reasons why it isn't a good idea. However, if you do want viable feedback, contact them the promoter and make a request that a jury member could give you a little more info why you were rejected or whatever else you might need to know. You may find it wasn't due to your work at all - it could be that you failed to do something on your application, you sent in the wrong photos (sending to many for instance), the category is already filled by the time they reached your application/photos regardless of whether you think your work is better than what they chose.... In other words, don't take rejection too personally - promoters recognize everyone is very talented but they can only do so much. I am sure if they could accept everyone who applied it would be great, but it just isn't possible, so they do the best they can and trust that the jury members do the right thing. At that point you just have to respect their decision and move onto the next show.

Lastly, you said... I've had some of the best times of my life doing shows but I sure get frustrated at the lack of show directors doing their jobs.

What else is it that you feel show directors aren't doing? You never got into this topic unless it is just to go along with the "gripes" from before. Hey we all get upset about shows, at the end of the day we have the ability to choose which ones to do or not. Sometimes we learn the hard way, sometimes we see the red flags and get lucky and better yet find the show ended up being great and we are double lucky. Just count your blessings - both good and bad - as we become better people having had the experience!

Michelle
www.bythebaybotanicals.com
www.quickcraftartisttips.blogspot.com

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